Arguments From Jesus Part Due (I've been studying Italian all day)

The person I have been debating with and I have, or course, hit the hot topics first. I don't think that is surprising to anyone. We talked homosexuality (where she mentioned God said that it was wrong - so we should follow his word Leviticus 18:22) and I responded thus:


(Click to Enlarge, and no, I didn't respond with a comic, though that could have been interesting)

"I strongly believe that every human has a right to happiness here on earth, but that cannot be upheld for some when others are oppressing their rights to live as individuals who do no appreciable harm to others or to the society in which they live.

. . . .

"Homosexuality does no appreciable harm to anyone involved in the relationship or to the society in which it exists. No homosexual has ever been militant about acquiring their rights (meaning employing violence to further their agenda). Homosexuals actually have a lower rate of sexual deviance than straight males (percentage wise). Homosexuals have been proven to be as capable parents as a straight couple. Homosexuality is not abnormal to humans: apes, dogs, and many other species engage in homosexual acts also. The only harm that has come from homosexuality is from hate crimes that have been committed against the homosexual community largely due to religious inclinations."

Then we hit abortion. Now, I have to say some of my facts may not be exact, but I tried to present the best argument I could without doing a ton of research. She argued for adoption as an alternative and for the unborn babies rights to be born and to (in the future) make it's own decisions. She also offered a quote from Corinthians 6:19-20 about our bodies being God's, not out own, and our bodies housing the Holy Spirit. I can see that it would then be horrible of us to destroy a life if that life did indeed contain some essence of God. My arguments are below:


(Click to Enlarge - Oh man, this is awful, you all see the coat hanger in there, right?)

"On abortion. Women should be able to choose if they want the fetus they are carrying. Not until late second trimester can the fetus feel pain. This is the same time that the fetus becomes aware that it is a living being (we know this because of the development of the central nervous system in the late second trimester).

"Also, you asked about the rights of the child? That is a good thing to take into consideration. What about the right of the child to grow up in an environment where it won't be tempted into alcohol and drugs. What about the right of the child to grow up in an environment where it can be financially supported? What about the right of the child to grow up in a family that loves it?

"The would be mothers of these children are taking these things into consideration when they go to the clinic. They know they cannot provide the correct environment for the child to grow up in, so they survey their options. Adoption is a hard process that costs thousands of dollars (plus the cost to the mother of actually having the child and considering only about 50% of this country has health care that can be enormous), if the mother is already a poor woman (the poor tend to have more children than the rich) then this is not an option for her. If she decides to have the child but is unwilling to adoption she then has to take the care of the child, this option will cost her tens of thousands if not (at least) a hundred thousand dollars over the child's life. Of course there is always the rape case, what to do with a child of a man she doesn't know?

"Why are women put in the situation where they need an abortion? Actually, about 60-70% of abortions are from married women who have already had at least one child. They didn't want to have another child for various reasons (money, bad husband, lifestyle choice, etc.) but whatever form of contraception they were using failed (almost 100% of abortions are because of failed contraception (or no contraception because of lack of education) - very few are actually because of rape). I have even talked to a doctor who saw a religious protester outside his clinic whom he had performed an abortion on. Her claim was that she needed it, but the other women don't because they were using it as a form of contraception. Pretty expensive contraception ($100-$500)."

I'll leave it at that for now. But there is already more. My abortion and homosexuality arguments were actually provided before the arguments she gave. I decided not to respond further to those because I knew where we both stood, and these are not the root of the believe in god, the belief in god is the root of these beliefs. So I asked her to provide evidences for the existence of god and the bible being his book. We'll see what happens.

Here's a little video on Birth Control Methods. It's a little boring, but there are a few points where she gets a little flustered by what she has to say. The effectiveness rates she gives are ideal effectiveness rates, so actually assume that they are about 10-15% less effective than she says (which is why you always want to combine more than one form of contraceptive).